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 Unbalanceness?

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Akai'zhar

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PostSubject: Unbalanceness?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:41 am

First i go with the complaint section of this topic, then to the suggestion.

So i recently learned not only do you need to pay 15 tokens to get spells upgrade to level2, which is pretty much compared to fact once more warriors don't need this, you actually need to pay 15 tokens for a single spell, so i gave it a bit thought and...

15x4 = 60 tokens, this is what you should have around at level 15 or so when fighters recieve their default up to power.

Now looking to the higher spells that cost 30 tokens each for rank3 makes it total 120 Rp tokens you need.

Then finally you can purchase the level4 ultima/meteor spell for 60 tokens.

In short what this means is, Mages both white and black need to have earned 240 RP tokens to compare to warrior of same level and still be without their overdrive, which would cost them 100 RP tokens more for level4 overdrive.
Now to compare all mages between the fighters...I don't think it's really fair this way? While the mages do gain 1d2 damage bonus, they still need to sacrifice MP for each attack that might not even hit, so magic isn't that much more powerful either, or to cure themselves.

What i'd suggest then is...

If we could get both classes very much balanced in same way?

- This could be for example, mages getting new spells based on their level instead of needing to pay for it.
- Fighters recieve damage boost on sacrificing RP tokens equal to the mages.
- Or something else?

If we could find some way to balance all the current classes. Since it's nwn still...based on Final fantasy, it should only be fair for everyone?
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Fighter

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PostSubject: Re: Unbalanceness?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:06 am

Akai'zhar wrote:
First i go with the complaint section of this topic, then to the suggestion.

So i recently learned not only do you need to pay 15 tokens to get spells upgrade to level2, which is pretty much compared to fact once more warriors don't need this, you actually need to pay 15 tokens for a single spell, so i gave it a bit thought and...

15x4 = 60 tokens, this is what you should have around at level 15 or so when fighters recieve their default up to power.

Now looking to the higher spells that cost 30 tokens each for rank3 makes it total 120 Rp tokens you need.

Then finally you can purchase the level4 ultima/meteor spell for 60 tokens.

In short what this means is, Mages both white and black need to have earned 240 RP tokens to compare to warrior of same level and still be without their overdrive, which would cost them 100 RP tokens more for level4 overdrive.
Now to compare all mages between the fighters...I don't think it's really fair this way? While the mages do gain 1d2 damage bonus, they still need to sacrifice MP for each attack that might not even hit, so magic isn't that much more powerful either, or to cure themselves.

What i'd suggest then is...

If we could get both classes very much balanced in same way?

- This could be for example, mages getting new spells based on their level instead of needing to pay for it.
- Fighters recieve damage boost on sacrificing RP tokens equal to the mages.
- Or something else?

If we could find some way to balance all the current classes. Since it's nwn still...based on Final fantasy, it should only be fair for everyone?

First problems with this. 1 fighters CAN learn spells. 2 mages you specificly are more powerful then us. Because of the flawed rp system you had more hp then a barbarian ronso twice your height and 4 times your muscle mass. 3 you already do WAY more damage then us fighters and us fighters cant compete becuase of the unbalanced system that exists ALREADY. So if anything you should be paying more.
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Prvt. Bob



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PostSubject: Re: Unbalanceness?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:55 am

Actually, once a mage is out of MP, they are finished. While a warrior of some sort on the other hand is not dragged down by the constant need to rest and replenish a pool of magic. Granted, it is lower damage initially, but given a long fight or without any opportunity to rest, a warrior is going to live long past the mage's exportation time. So in a sense, spellcasters are brutal quick and fast, then they burn out to next to nill damage, while the warriors continue plugging away with the same hit ratio they have.

Mostly, that is the reason why mages do next to nothing until the big fight is at hand. That is when they unleash their potential. And at that point, I would be happy to have somebody like that on my team and pray that you are not going against something like that.

So by in large: Mages are powerful for a short period of time. Warriors are a constant. In the long run, a warrior will always out do a mage if the fight is long enough or resting is not allowed in between fights.
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Fighter

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PostSubject: Re: Unbalanceness?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:44 am

Prvt. Bob wrote:
Actually, once a mage is out of MP, they are finished. While a warrior of some sort on the other hand is not dragged down by the constant need to rest and replenish a pool of magic. Granted, it is lower damage initially, but given a long fight or without any opportunity to rest, a warrior is going to live long past the mage's exportation time. So in a sense, spellcasters are brutal quick and fast, then they burn out to next to nill damage, while the warriors continue plugging away with the same hit ratio they have.

Mostly, that is the reason why mages do next to nothing until the big fight is at hand. That is when they unleash their potential. And at that point, I would be happy to have somebody like that on my team and pray that you are not going against something like that.

So by in large: Mages are powerful for a short period of time. Warriors are a constant. In the long run, a warrior will always out do a mage if the fight is long enough or resting is not allowed in between fights.

Incorrect in this game in this system she has more then enough fire power to destroy any single person in even the longest of fights. Ive seen her fight leo whos a good str charisma mix and that fight lasted over 45 minutes and she never once ran out. While yes in a long fight against large numbers it is possible to wear a mage down but 1 on 1 a warrior will lose EVERTIME. Heres how. Math.

Mage higher power weapons higher armor limted supply of high damage attacks. Mage has enough mana to destroy up to 3 warriors in a single fight. While the two best mages here are level 11 they have more hp then a warrior and enough mp to kill 3 warriors before they run out. 1 if they meet a high magic resistant warrior. And even in leo's case who is by far the best anti mage ive seen he still lost. The sad fact of it is they have more then enough mp to kill you easly you can not out damage them and in a turn based system where they got more mp more hp, youll lose EVERY SINGLE TIME.

So either you 1 waste a ton of stats on a magic resist skill thats over 9 to have a good chance or 2 you die.

And in the case of high magic resist your real attack suffers, its a no win situation.

So yeah the system is unfair but its unfair for the warrior not the mage.
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killvalo

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PostSubject: Re: Unbalanceness?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:56 pm

Fighter, i would agree with you, exept for one thing.... You HAVENT played a mage of any kind. now you say that the mages have more hp than you.... blame this on you, not calculating right. if your even close to the same lvl, than a warrior will have more hp... period. that is unless they were being an idiot, and didnt put points into con. Secondly, 1d8 dmg truely means, 4 dmg an attack. of course it is possible for a mage to get really lucky and roll all 8's on there magic, but for this example we will be going with the averages. Now a warrior of lvl 15 versus a mage lvl 15 will do exactly the same damage as a mage, becuase atm, only one mage in the server knows a rank two spell.... Lucina (or however you spell her name). Noow, if the warrior was smart and put points into con, they will no doubt win, becuase they both have higher hp, and do the same dmg. While the mage has lower hp, and attacks are limited to there mp, and when that mp is out, they will start doing an average of 1 dmg a round. or even 0 dmg a round, seeing as how most mages dont have enough str/dex to get past a warriors block and dodge attack.
So what im saying, is that mages will lose to any warrior, if that warrior was smart with there stats.
Now back on topic: The costs for spells dont need to be changed, they are that way for a specific reason.... so that the rare spells, will stay just that.... RARE.
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Nirvana620

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PostSubject: Re: Unbalanceness?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:23 pm

Akai'zhar wrote:


What i'd suggest then is...

If we could get both classes very much balanced in same way?

- This could be for example, mages getting new spells based on their level instead of needing to pay for it.
- Fighters recieve damage boost on sacrificing RP tokens equal to the mages.
- Or something else?

If we could find some way to balance all the current classes. Since it's nwn still...based on Final fantasy, it should only be fair for everyone?

We are even, remember you and Leo dueled and i almost beat you.

Also, i beleve if we give mages -free- widgets spella at a certain lvl, everyone will start playing mages more.

Atleast instead of giveing them -free- things, lower the price a bit.
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DM Jecht
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PostSubject: Re: Unbalanceness?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:41 pm

I'll take this all into consideration
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Fighter

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PostSubject: Re: Unbalanceness?   Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:09 am

Nirvana620 wrote:
Akai'zhar wrote:


What i'd suggest then is...

If we could get both classes very much balanced in same way?

- This could be for example, mages getting new spells based on their level instead of needing to pay for it.
- Fighters recieve damage boost on sacrificing RP tokens equal to the mages.
- Or something else?

If we could find some way to balance all the current classes. Since it's nwn still...based on Final fantasy, it should only be fair for everyone?

We are even, remember you and Leo dueled and i almost beat you.

Also, i beleve if we give mages -free- widgets spella at a certain lvl, everyone will start playing mages more.

Atleast instead of giveing them -free- things, lower the price a bit.

yeah YOUR even but everyone else is not anyone who doesnt sack a ton of stats isnt gonnna have a remote chance against a mage who will have as much if not more hp then a fighter type. The fact a mage has more or equal hp and defense to a fighter is insanely unfair. mages need to have alot less defense and hp that way anyone who isnt built specifiably to be anti mage will have a chance. Id like to point out that leo sacrificed combat effectiveness as a fighter to be able to half way resist in that fight hes a rare exception most of us can not afford to sack that much for that high amount of defense. So either people make high charisma paladins or they die in seconds without any mathematical hope of beating a mage in this unfair system.

Mages need to have lower hp by default if they get higher damage otherwise what the hell is the point of my sword? to do less damage to someone who has more hp and damage who i will never have a chance of resisting unless they roll a 3 or under? thats a little unfair dont ya think?
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Akai'zhar

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PostSubject: Re: Unbalanceness?   Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:33 am

Leo, it's not about what the situation is at the moment, it's for future progressing of all characters which should be similiar unless we do a ton of changes in dice fight rules and other adjustments which i'd hate, since the only good side in dice fight i see is you get to RP instead of letting machine rolling your dices, the game is allready mostly balanced except past epic levels after all.

Mages only should learn spells, perhaps fighters if they wish to learn them or ''multi-classing'' so to speak in FF terms could be done by DM permissions.

But i made my point atleast the DM is concidering it silent


Mages get exactly the same Hp as fighters of same stats.

Warrior can have: 18str/16con and have stats elsewhere aswell.
Mage can have: 18cha/int and 16con and have other stats aswell.

What i mean by making things fair is exactly as i said, mages could even sacrifice their 1d2 damage bonus if so. But they still need to use MP for attacks which is vital, in a fight though they aren't likely to run out of it if they have 18cha or 18 int in start.

Any normal fighter can get their int/wis/cha up to 8 modifier too. If they started with 14 int which most smart fighters/rogues do if they want wm or lot of skill points. 8 vs 11..is pretty big chance? =x same thing mages can get up to 8 modifier with 14 str, or more often than not just get 6 modifier since they take no str or dex. It's all about what items you purchase.
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Nirvana620

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PostSubject: Re: Unbalanceness?   Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:04 pm

I don't sack and of my stats for Leo, also i klike the dice rule fights......I mean on any server, I just like diceroll fights.
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Nirvana620

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PostSubject: Re: Unbalanceness?   Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:08 pm

Guys lets not fight over this, cus its just RPing for a spar.....Yes...We can change it...But we don't need to fight.
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killvalo

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PostSubject: Re: Unbalanceness?   Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:20 pm

NIrvana reminded me of something...This server Forbids Evil chars.... meaning, there should be about 1 pvp fight a day... or even once a week, becuase without evil pc's, there's almost no reason to fight each other... And the only examples, and complaints, here are based on PvP.
So... Enough of the fighting, keep things on subject.... Is it unbalanced to have mages pay so mant tokens for there spells, while fighters dont have to pay for there dmg increase? in my opinion no, it is not unbalanced... for one reason, that once you get to rank three magic, a fighter will have to be epic'ly high to do that amount of dmg. So, i believe that your not just paying for the spell, your paying to be able to do tons of damage, at any lvl.
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Nirvana620

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PostSubject: Re: Unbalanceness?   Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:28 pm

killvalo wrote:
NIrvana reminded me of something...This server Forbids Evil chars.... meaning, there should be about 1 pvp fight a day... or even once a week, becuase without evil pc's, there's almost no reason to fight each other... And the only examples, and complaints, here are based on PvP.
So... Enough of the fighting, keep things on subject.... Is it unbalanced to have mages pay so mant tokens for there spells, while fighters dont have to pay for there dmg increase? in my opinion no, it is not unbalanced... for one reason, that once you get to rank three magic, a fighter will have to be epic'ly high to do that amount of dmg. So, i believe that your not just paying for the spell, your paying to be able to do tons of damage, at any lvl.

Well put Killvalo. Yes there are no "evil" chracters on this server, so why fight? Yes there are pain in the ass chracters. *nod nod, then points to Leo* Yes, but you still don't need to be on fighting sprees.....
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Nocturne Zine

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PostSubject: Re: Unbalanceness?   Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:42 am

Nirvana620 wrote:
killvalo wrote:
NIrvana reminded me of something...This server Forbids Evil chars.... meaning, there should be about 1 pvp fight a day... or even once a week, becuase without evil pc's, there's almost no reason to fight each other... And the only examples, and complaints, here are based on PvP.
So... Enough of the fighting, keep things on subject.... Is it unbalanced to have mages pay so mant tokens for there spells, while fighters dont have to pay for there dmg increase? in my opinion no, it is not unbalanced... for one reason, that once you get to rank three magic, a fighter will have to be epic'ly high to do that amount of dmg. So, i believe that your not just paying for the spell, your paying to be able to do tons of damage, at any lvl.

Well put Killvalo. Yes there are no "evil" chracters on this server, so why fight? Yes there are pain in the ass chracters. *nod nod, then points to Leo* Yes, but you still don't need to be on fighting sprees.....

Ahem.
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